Tag Archives: RRIF

Can I Take Stocks Out of my BMO InvestorLine RRIF Without Selling Them?

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At this stage, we’re still adding to our RRSPs each year. But all too soon it will be time to change our RRSPs into RRIFs. And once you have a RRIF whether you want to or not, you have to take some assets out each year and pay tax on them. The federal government sets a minimum withdrawal schedule generally starting at age 72. But what if I don’t want to make my withdrawals in cash? I wanted to know if I could take stocks out of my BMO InvestorLine account without selling them.

Why Would I Want to Transfer Out Stocks from my RRIF?

There isn’t a lot of benefit to making a withdrawal “in kind” from a RRIF. Basically, it saves two trading commissions: one for the sale of the stocks inside the RRIF, and one for re-purchasing the stocks in a non-registered brokerage account outside of the RRIF.
There is one other advantage: it reduces the risk that you might sell for a lower price than you have to pay to re-purchase the same shares.

Because you will pay tax based on the deemed value of the shares on the day you transfer them out (not based on the book value, or the price you paid for the shares when you first invested in them) you will not avoid any tax on the capital gain.

In fact any increase in value is not even considered a capital gain. The entire withdrawal is treated as “income” by the government and unfortunately you pay regular tax on it, not just capital gains tax. You can’t claim any capital losses in a RRIF or when making a sale to make a cash withdrawal from a RRIF either. Sorry.

Why Most People Don’t Transfer Stocks out of Their RRIFs

Most people don’t care if you can transfer stocks out or not. They need cash!

If you need the cash right away, there is no need to transfer the stocks out. It’s only worth transferring the stocks out if you have plenty of cash and you want to keep holding that stock for the long term.

For example, you might need the cash value of those stocks to either
(a) live on or
(b) pay the deferred taxes with.

Remember, when you make a withdrawal from your RRIF you have to pay income taxes on it. Generally, you will have to pay when you file your quarterly or annual tax return.

If you withdraw more than the required annual minimum, you will have to pay a portion of the taxes immediately though as tax is “withheld” and submitted to the CRA by your financial institution.

Checking Whether “In Kind” Transfers Out are Permitted to Meet RRIF Withdrawal Requirements

I used the BMO InvestorLine MyLink secure email system to ask whether it is possible to make a required RRIF annual withdrawal “in kind” rather than in cash.

Specifically, I asked whether stocks could be transferred in kind from a RRIF to a regular non-registered InvestorLine brokerage account in order to meet the mandatory government withdrawal schedule.

Stock Transfers Out of a RRIF Are Permitted at InvestorLine

Good news!

Yes, you can transfer shares directly out from an InvestorLine RRIF into a non-registered InvestorLine brokerage account.

The detailed reply included the following information:
“With InvestorLine, the default option is cash payments. If you would like to setup an in-kind payment, they are done on a manual basis. What you would be required to do is contract us, 2 weeks in advance from the scheduled cash payment, and request an in-kind payment. The agent assisting you will submit the request for in-kind shares to be moved to your non-registered cash account and ensure to cancel the cash payment.

Ensure [that a non-registered cash account] is opened prior to the payment being requested to ensure smooth processing of the minimum in-kind RIF payment.”

So it can be done, but you have to be prepared:

  1. Set up your InvestorLine non-registered account well in advance of your first RRIF withdrawal. (I’d suggest opening it at least 2 months in advance.)
  2. Two weeks (or earlier if they will let you) ahead of transfer time, contact InvestorLine and request the schedule cash payment be cancelled.
    At that time request the in-kind transfer. You will have to specify

    • which shares to move,
    • how many shares to move,
    • and how you will pay the withholding tax required by the government if you are withdrawing more than the required minimum (which is likely as the shares are not likely to divide evenly into your minimum requirement).

Let’s  hope we can all transfer the shares in kind –and hope it’s because we’re all rolling in so much cash we don’t need the money!

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Have you done an in-kind transfer of shares from your RRIF to a brokerage account? Did it go smoothly? Please share your tips or tricks with others facing this same challenge by leaving a comment.

Where Can I Find My US Ledger Stocks in My BMO InvestorLine RRSP or TFSA Account?

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Recently I set up a US dollar sub-account within my BMO InvestorLine RRSP account. Then I transferred some shares in TD into the US side. I intend to sell them there and buy something on the NYSE using the US dollars I will get for the sale. So I’ve been keeping an eye on my account waiting to see them journal over from the Canadian side to the US ledger. After a while I began to wonder where they would show up.

When I made the request to move the TD shares to my new US sub-account within my RRSP, I asked for only 100 shares to be transferred. That left me with some TD shares still in the Canadian dollar side of the account.

The first business day after the transfer, when I checked My Holdings under the My Portfolio tab, I could see two lines for TD. One line was for the 100 shares I had transferred. The other was for the balance of shares that I didn’t move. Both lines reported the current share price and value in Canadian dollars. So I thought, mistakenly, that the 100 shares had not yet been moved to the US dollar ledger.

How to See the US Side of a BMO InvestorLine RRSP or TFSA Account

A few business days later I began to wonder why nothing seemed different in the My Holdings view. Rather than just phone and ask, I decided to check around the screen. Sure enough, I had overlooked something:

To see the US dollar side, or ledger, or journal, or sub-account or whatever it should be called, you have to change the display in My Holdings. Here’s how:

  1. Sign in to your account/s.
    1. Go to https://www.bmoinvestorline.com/
    2. In the User ID or Account # field, type your account number or if you have grouped your accounts under one User ID, type your User ID.
    3. In the Password field, type your password.
    4. Click on the Go button.
  2. From the drop-down list at the top right of the screen, select the account within which you created a US dollar side.
  3. From the My Portfolio tab, select Holdings.
  4. From the Categorize by: drop-down list, select: Asset class & settlement currency.
    Click on the Go button.
  5. When you are finished reviewing your InvestorLine holdings, be sure to click on the Sign Out button. For increased security, close your browser session.

What You Will See When Displaying the US Journal for your InvestorLine Account

In the Cash balances section you will still see a line item for Canadian $ Cash and for U.S. $ Cash. They don’t move these lines under the next sub-headings.

The next new sub-heading reads: Portfolio held in CAD

Under it are the usual suspects:

Cash equivalents

  • GIC
  • Mutual funds

Fixed Income

  • Mutual funds

Equities

  • a list of your stocks with no heading. (Huh!)
  • Mutual funds (Remind me to sell that loser soon.)

Keep moving down and you’ll reach another new sub-heading:
Portfolio held in USD

For now I only have one sub-heading beneath that:
Equities
and a list of my shares.

Under this Portfolio held in USD: Equities section I finally see the two items in USD.
They are:

  • the Market Value, in USD; and
  • the Unrealized gain/loss in USD.

For some reason the listed Average Cost and Current Price are both still reported in CAD.

I can understand the Average Cost might be, since I did buy these shares in CAD.

I’m not sure why the Current Price isn’t listed in American dollars. Maybe the program just can’t pull prices from two sources easily?

I did go over to the Equity Order screen and check the spot prices for TD on the Canadian and American exchanges. They are not even close to the same price (because of the exchange rate.) They are trading about for about 4 cents less in USD than in CAD. The correct trading price (15-20 minute delayed) in CAD is being reported on both the Portfolio held in CAD and Portfolio held in USD sections of the screen.

How Can I See What Exchange Rate InvestorLine is Offering?

There’s also a little line at the bottom of this Holdings screen that says the current Exchange Rate is:
I USD = 1.0410 CAD; 1 CAD = 0.9606 USD

As you can see, these numbers are not opposites, so these must be the Exchange Rate INCLUDING the foreign currency exchange fee charged by BMO InvestorLine. (Otherwise if it costs 1.0410 Canadian to buy a US dollar, you should get 1.0410 Canadian if you sell a US Dollar.) I have no idea what I was trying to say here. What it does say is wrong as Peter politely pointed out.

Conclusion

I learned from this that I should click around more on my InvestorLine screens if I want to find out what’s going on in my account.

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Did you catch on right away that your US dollar shares could be found by sorting your Holdings? Or did it take a day or two like it did for me? Please share your experiences and tips with a comment.